In this interview, Jenny Mosher talks with John Wenitong aka Pemulwuy Weeatunga, author of author of The Fethafoot Chronicles to learn more about John, his writing practices and where he gets his ideas from.
If you’d like to learn more about John or check out some of his books, then visit IndieMosh.com.au or search for his books at your favourite online retailer.
I'm Jenny Mosher and today I'm talking with John Wenitong aka Pemulwuy Weeatunga, author of the Feathafoot Chronicles. Join me as we learn about John's creative history and what he's learned over the years about writing. G'day John, thanks for joining me with this interview. Um lovely to see you again this week. How have you been?
Ah fantastic it's uh really beautiful up here, except winter's gone and it's now about 29-30 degrees here at seven o'clock in the morning, with 90 per cent humidity.
Ooh, ooh, yeah it was still about eight degrees this morning down here, but it's warmed up. I've got my tropical shirt on and I think this will be about as close as I'm going to get to Queensland for a while. So um [laughs] I'll, I'll just enjoy it. Now ...
Enjoy the cool
Enjoy the cool weather, yeah, well cool morning. It's supposed to be about 29 this afternoon, I think, so um yeah -cool drink on the deck time! Now you've published ten books with us under the name of Pemulwuy Weeatunga. Is that how you pronounce it?
'Pemul, Pemul-way Weea-toonga.' Right, thank you. Umm ... now, one question I have about that and a lot of our authors sort of struggle. They, they'll use a pseudonym. So you've used a pseudonym but you don't hide behind that pseudonym. You're still John Wenitong who writes as Pemulwuy Weeatunga.
Why use a pseudonym but not hide behind it?
I, I was a bit lost. I've never done any writing or publishing before and I always wanted to ... one of my heroes was Pemulwuy the Eora warrior in Sydney.
And to give the books, I guess, a bit of authentic ... uh even a name, even in name, I decided to use Pemulwuy and Weeatunga is my, is a bastardised version of my father's name from Sri Lanka which was Winnigatonga.
And so I decided that I'd use Pemulwuy to to showcase the Aboriginal side of uh my writing and then Weeatunga in, basically because my father passed away when I was 21 and um I didn't know him very well, so it's just to put his name out there as well as Pemulwuy's.
All right, oh lovely! So sort of like a tribute to both men almost in a way.
In fact if I had the chance again I would actually just publish it under my name.
Yeah, yeah. Would that be easier?
It would be easy all round um but having the name Pemulwuy has got me and Weeatunga - Pemulwuy for a start was uh got a lot of ancient, what I call ANCAU -Ancient Australian people to at least have a look. And then Weeatunga has got me a lot of readers in India, Pakistan and all those Middle Eastern countries.
Wow ... oh, okay ...
Yeah it was pretty amazing.
That's, that's interesting. So you managed to ... by, by bringing both those parts of your heritage together, reach out ... it's sort of brought it together and then spread it out again.
So that is the reason that I did it in the first place and mainly because I really was just over-excited about being an author ... and I always had this strange idea that I'd use Pemulwuy and then Weeatunga and um and so I did it. But if I had the chance again I would just call myself John Wenitong.
Yeah, it's probably probably a bit easier in that respect, isn't it? Yeah. So you weren't always going to be a writer, were you? I mean, was that the childhood dream?
No no no no. I um I never ever thought I'd, I never thought about it and then when the old construction work injuries forced me to stop work ...
I was, I went a bit insane for a while because I'd worked all my life and then suddenly I'm nothing. I'm just sitting at home trying to get over injuries and a new hip and things and um it was really, really difficult because I lost friends, I lost um workmates, I lost my, the part of the ego that you have for working and ...
Yeah um and then my stepdaughter who was with me at the time said, 'Dad, why don't you write?' because she knew that I'd lectured at a uni um in Aboriginal Studies and I had all these stories that I got together for that for the course because I rewrote the course back then. It was very boring and I rewrote it and found all these colorful stories and she said, 'Why don't you give it a go?' and so I thought, 'Well, why not?' At least then it's keeping me sane and giving me something to focus on while I had to sit around for a couple of months.
And uh somebody down at the State Libraries heard that I had written four raw stories and got in touch with me for the inaugural black&write! competition for the State Libraries in Queensland and said, 'Put them,' in and I said, 'Well, they're very, very raw and I'm not a writer. I don't know what I've done. I don't know, you know, I don't know anything about it really,' and they asked me to put them in raw, as they were, so I did. And I was so lucky - I won one of the Highly Commendeds for the, for them nationally. Uh there was only two and I won one and that sort of boosted me incredibly.
Good on you.
It really was fantastic. And I started writing and the funny part about it from me was, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know anything about publishing, about writing a story, so I didn't plan any of the stories or characters. I sat down and let the characters and the environment tell my stories and I followed that as I wrote. And I realised after I'd finished the series that it was a fantastic way to write because it kept me really excited about what I was doing because these new things kept coming up all the time in the story and I just kept following the, following the, the environment and the characters.
That, so it was really organic? You, you, you weren't trying to control the characters or make them end up ...
Not at all.
So it just happened? Wow ...
It just happened and um everybody in my family, my friends, was completely shocked that I could sit down and write all this stuff without having a plan and I said, 'Well I didn't know you couldn't. I didn't know you shouldn't!' So for me it was, it was really a wonderful way to put something together. And Jenny as I said, as I've said on my website, I kind of feel a little bit that I was more of a conduit because I could, I was I was uh I had very good literacy from reading all my life, reading everything I could get my hands on all my life and I felt like I was a bit of a conduit for the whole great spirit of Aboriginal Dreaming and these stories just bolted out of me. The first four I did in two months.
And then the other ten it took me over two years, um but, that was pretty fast apparently because when I got onto you I remember you saying, You've written 10 stories?!'
And look, for the, for the viewers at home, which is not, not going to help the listeners, the podcast listeners, but for the viewers at home that's what the Fethafoot Chronicles looks like, physically. Um so we've got some shorter books at the beginning and then we, and then we start getting a bit longer and longer till we get to, to number, number 10 which is just, yeah, a bloody big book!
Which my, which my editor-proofer, Paul Vander Loos, I think ...
Paul Vander Loos, yeah?
At the time, he was, he gave me mates' rates because he'd just started as an editor- proofer and when he got to the tenth one he said, 'This isn't a book, it's a tome, John!'
[Laughs.] So by the time you got to number 10, like, 10 is significantly longer, was that in your head at the beginning or like did you have the ideas? 10 ideas? Or did you just write one book and think, 'Oh! Now I've got another idea!'
I just wrote the first one and it sort of carried on from there.
And the ideas just kept coming and coming and coming ... and the last one was because I thought, 'Well every author writes an apocalypse story!'
[Laughs.] That's true, you've gotta, got to have an apocalypse, gotta have a bit of dystopia, yeah! Right ...
Um I started writing that and it went on and on and on because um I travelled, the story travelled through Australia - a long journey in uh in Australia after the apocalypse and it just kept getting longer and longer.
And it was just amazing really. I had no idea what I was doing.
But you've got imagination.
Imagination to burn. I've never had writer's block. My problem is I have too many ideas.
At the moment I've got another 25 books on the go and a couple of them are 300 pages long and they're only halfway finished and I haven't got back to them because of the injuries that I faced and that's very difficult to sit down and focus again. Like in those two years my body was a lot better and I was uh really focused on doing the stories um.
But yeah, writer's block I-I thought about it because people told me, 'Do you get writer's block?' and I had to look it up and see what writer's block was.
I can hear people around the world going, 'Bastard! How can he never have writer's block? That's not fair!'
Well even now ... go on ...
If you're not trying to control the story or control the characters, you're possibly less likely to get writer's block, aren't you?
I think so. I think so. And because I-I think too that having 60,000 years behind me of stories uh gives you a great chance, it gives you a great opportunity to, a lot of options ,because the stories are ... when you're writing fiction you can do anything you like!
Ooh, you can, yeah. That's true, that's true. Well now there's a, there's a, there's a question - terminology. Would you terminate, would you, bluh! Would you call yourself a storyteller as opposed to a writer?
Yes. I my, my hero of the written story was Eric Wilmot who wrote um Pemulwuy the Rainbow Warrior back in 1986 and when I read it, it was like reading a script for a movie more than a book.
And I think I got inspiration off the way he wrote because he didn't, he told stories with a lot of description I guess.
But it was really cut down description so you didn't have to go through uh you know pages and pages of um tiny little irrelevant things.
Yeah, no flowery details.
It was the kind of writing that I really liked um because I could really sink myself into it and see the words in pictures, see the story and what he was talking about in pictures and I guess that inspired me to write that way, I guess, and I saw that you could do that um and I guess it inspired me. Yes.
Good on you! You've written 10 of these. Now when you did them originally you released them as ebooks yourself and I, and I want to make mention of this because um there's no one right way to self-publish anymore. Like you can do it in different ways. So you self-published the ebooks yourself but then you came to us to do the print versions.
Um so, you know, you don't have to put all your eggs in one basket, do you? You can hedge bets or do whatever works.
Well I tried like other authors for 18 months and I sent manuscript after manuscript all around Australia and all around the world and a couple of the big um publishing companies, Allen and Unwin and a couple of others, got back to me and said, 'Look, mate, you're a brand new author and you've written 10 books. We wouldn't even be game to take you on because you're not famous, you haven't done anything famous, so you're a brand new writer. But we encourage you to keep going because the genre that you're writing in is wide open.
And that gave me a huge encouragement as well because um I had learned over those 18 months that most don't even get back to you with a rejection, they just throw you in the bin.
So I was talking to my children about it and they were sitting on a laptop reading ebooks and I didn't know what ebooks were. And so when I got into finding out what ebooks were I got onto BookBaby in the USA and they said, 'Yes, we'll take you on, for a price.' And I it was a fairly reasonable price, I thought. And so not realising what I was in for I spent a year with them editing and proofing to convert from text, Word, to ebook format. And so I did it with them over email and it took a whole year to get everything right and one of the books, one of the shorter books, took seven goes to get it right. And that was about a month's worth of work.
Um and it was really, really a steep learning curve um but I just followed directions basically and um and it was fantastic.
Did it get faster as you, as you went through the year? Like ...
Oh absolutely, absolutely. After the first couple I realised what I had to do. A couple of the problems weren't my problems. The majority of the problems were them converting to ebook, converting to ebook format, and it was changing parts of the story so every time they converted, they sent it back to me and then I had to read the whole story again, which meant during that year I read each story probably 40 times.
[Laughs.] I mean, even when it's your own work, there's a limit, isn't there?
Oh, there was a limit, believe me! People said, 'Do you ever read your books?' I said, 'No, not anymore.' I've read them 40 times. I've found every mistake, every full stop out of place, every dash, every comma ... ah ... and when I got to you, to you were that MoshPit Publishing I think then ...
When I got to you I was fairly comfortable with it and with um working with you guys because I worked out over that year that I'd found every mistake and um everything and it was pretty well just a, and it was quite an easy process with your company then.
Um, to do the uh paperback publishing.
Right. Yeah, yeah. Well I'm glad you did find us. And then we've done one um Silent Sky. Silent Sky is an ebook.
Ah yeah Silent Sky and Tchernaya Creek.
Oh that's right! We did, too. I've lost count! Twelve titles.
They were all stories I wrote for competitions that didn't go anywhere so I said I'd put them on um I think I talked to you and Ally and um uh we talked about putting them on as freebies on my website and uh Ally was just telling me the other day that they've had three, four hundred downloads ...
Oh good, good .
... of people reading the freebies which is fantastic because it gives them a great idea of how I write and what the stories may be like that they might purchase.
Yeah, they're good marketing materials. I mean I know the Fethafoot Chronicles are in a lot of the libraries around the country. So ...
... I did hear a rumor that number 10 was written on a cruise?
That is absolutely correct.
Who goes on a cruise to write a book?
Well [both laugh] I had a marriage breakup and I needed to do something a bit different for my birthday and so I shouted myself this trip. But I was, I'd written nine books and nine stories and I was on the last one and I was thinking about the apocalypse and I didn't realise that being on a huge boat would still hurt my back.
Because the boat's always, even though it's a massive boat, it's still going up and down so you're using your core muscles non-stop to walk, to sit, and to do everything. So um I was always going to finish the story if I could uh while I was there because I wasn't interested - I went with a friend and he was interested in drinking and draining the boat's 12 bars dry and I didn't drink!
Yep. Well that's not a match made in heaven, mate! [both laugh]
Luckily he was a good mate, but um, but um, so yes I used the time and to be honest it was quite a good thing, quite a good position to be in, because you can't go anywhere except for the boat, and your scenery is beautiful, absolutely, stunningly beautiful, nighttime or daytime.
Yeah, yeah. Where did you cruise to?
Uh Port Vila and all the little islands around the New Hebrides.
Um so uh my mum's father came from that area. Uh Ambrym's Island in New Hebrides and um I had never seen the area at all because of working all my life and now I was basically semi-retired because I, because of the injuries um I thought I'd go on this boat cruise. I just didn't realise how hard it would be on me uh being on a boat in the middle of the Pacific Ocean but um I took painkillers and I wrote and wrote and wrote and wrote while I was on there. And I had it almost finished by the time I got back in 12 days.
I just wanted a change of scenery and see new things and it just worked out really well for me to sit down on the deck and write. And I just sat on the deck for 12 days basically and wrote from morning to night and made some good friends because of what I was writing as well because people were coming over, 'What are you doing? You don't go to the pub. You don't go to the dances. You don't go to this and you don't go to that.' And I said, 'I'm writing a book.' 'Ooh!'
'Am I in it? Am I in it?' [both laugh]
So no, no one was paranoid that you were actually writing about the people you were watching?
No, no. I explained to them what I was doing and I showed them some of the first stories I'd written.
And people were ripping off my um they wanted to get it on um, they wanted to get hold of them and I of course I couldn't print it out and people were coming up to me with usb sticks saying, 'Can you, can you put it on this?' and I said, 'Well no, I haven't published it yet!'
'And when I do publish it, I'm not giving it to you on a usb stick anyway. You go and buy it, mate!'
Exactly. But it was a fantastic trip and it was really, I'd never been on a big cruise like that before but it was a great way for me to focus.
Yeah, yeah. And I found like I've only ever done one cruise, it was three nights, it was just a little it was a tester, and I found I relaxed like I, I wouldn't have believed I did. It just ...
Yes that's right, that's part of it too, that when you move out of Brisbane uh on the boat and you start seeing only ocean, relax ... I, I've always loved the ocean and I've been a fisherman all my life um and it just relaxes me completely. So it was a great way for me to relax as well.
After a few, after a few heavier parts of my life ... changes .[both laugh]
So, so you've got the books out. How do you find promotion like, selling, as an author like, that's, a lot of our authors say that's the hard thing - marketing.
I had no idea when I started but the, the time, because of self-publishing, I had to learn quickly about every part of the business, I guess you might call it so um I um I realised that there was around 10,000 books per day being published. I found out there was about 10,000 books per day being published around the world.
And that was back then.
And that was back then! So to keep your head and it's much easier to publish these days as well.
So um which a lot of people have realised and now every man and his dog is writing a book and publishing it, so to keep my head above water I had to do everything possible so that's why my books are in the libraries everywhere um which was you know part and parcel of promotion. And I started paying money to promote my books on different sites and um advertising them here and there and using Google and using anybody basically that was cheap enough for me to make it worthwhile.
[both laugh] Yeah.
I wanted to put them into an audio book um until I realised that they were charging per word to put them in the audio books and my last book was huge.
Huge, yeah. I can't remember the word count but, yeah.
No I can't either now but it, it would have cost me around 20 grand ...
... to do it and that just wasn't on.
No. The problem with audio books like they're great, they're, they're a great thing to have as an asset, as an author, but to produce them somebody has to read every single word, then somebody ...
And read it well.
And read it well as you would like it to be read.
And because I used a lot of um Aboriginal English ...
... in the books to explain things um I found that a lot of the, I got, a I got a few trials, I got a few uh samples from people, but I found that a lot of them had no idea how to pronounce some of the words and how to put the meaning across for a particular paragraph that I felt so strongly about. So in the end it was either me do it myself or uh wait until it was cheap or until um Word uh can do it for you with inflection.
With inflection, yeah. It's getting there. You can actually use Word now too to translate your text ...
... to audio. Um ...
Word ... Word at the moment uh is getting better and better and better non-stop. And nowadays on Word you can just listen, you can ... Well that was one of the things I learned that you can, back in the early days, that if you uh want to know what your story sounds like you get Word to read it back to you and you quickly find any mistakes or pauses or things that shouldn't be there.
That's right. It helps you work out, 'Ooh! Shouldn't have put the comma there, should have put it here!' Yeah.
Absolutely. It was a great help.
Yeah, yeah ... it's a good little tool that. So are you still writing? Are you playing your guitar still? Are you writing songs?
Um yes and no. My injuries have forced me to put the guitar to the side because when you play you start swaying. You can't help it, you move.
And of course I, where I used to be able to play for four hours at a time, now 20 minutes and I'm in pain.
Ah, that's a shame.
So uh I'm still playing and I put um little tricks I learned on YouTube every now and then on my YouTube website for amateurs to learn a few tricks um. And I'm still writing but a lot of short story stuff which doesn't take me long to write, like the Furious Fiction which you write 500 words in 24 hours I think it is, in competitions um, but I write an awful lot these days for social platforms to get my ... or basically to help advanced um Ancient Australians in Australia.
Um so on Facebook these days there's an Aboriginal website called Aboriginal that has 55 and a half thousand people nationally.
So I do an awful lot of short story comedy and I've just finished a whole series of funny things that happened when I was working in construction for, for 30, 40 years and people have just been uh saying it's been helping them through the lockdowns.
Oh okay, oh that's good!
I've realised just this year after having my books out for 10 years that you must promote the author as well as the books. You cannot just promote the books without the person.
That's right. People don't buy books, they buy authors.
Yeah which um which surprised me because I bought, I always read fiction because of the stories, not because of the author, you know. Like Stephen King, I didn't know much about Stephen King but I loved his stories.
But I have found recently that even the stuff I'm doing on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram is getting me more clients reading my books.
And the funny stories I'm telling and the silly things I put on um funny little songs I do um it's all part of, it's a big part of getting your books out there because people like what like what you are.
That's right. And if they like what they see there, chances are they're going to like the content of your books.
And that helps because you, you know this is another thing um no matter what you write, your books aren't going to appeal to everybody. Doesn't matter what your topic is. So what you want to do is attract the people that like the stuff that you do and then they'll be the ones more inclined, instead of trying to appeal to everybody, appeal to the people that yeah um you can get that connection with.
Yeah. I learned that, I learned that little lesson from um putting out my manuscripts and what the feedback I got as well that, 'What is your audience, John? Who are your audience?' Hey what? What do you mean? Everybody's going to read my book! Everybody will love me!
That's so true. It's not everybody. Everybody is not going to be your audience. No.
Something strange that happened to me was that um I was, I found out that my books are being read as ebooks mostly in the countries of people who have dark skin in the Middle East and Asian countries.
I would have never thought about that but um all the people that the English went over and conquered and made learn English are now, can read my books. And they're reading them because they don't know anything about Australia and here's this dark skinned Aboriginal person telling them stories about the country and about uh what happened and but in a nice way. And I use a lot of comedy in all my stories because that's how I grew up. My uncles, aunts, my - all the people I knew used humor uh as a crutch you might say for any bad things.
Just the point in question - I used to ring my cousin in Gladstone when I was a young person and she'd pick up the phone and say, 'Who died?!'
[Laughs.] Yep. And humour, humour makes ... you can still tell a serious story and put humor into it too.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think you've got to.
I mean I feel that's how I feel. I don't feel, I feel that your stories have got to be a little bit like life and if life doesn't give you a laugh now and then well it's a very dull boring thing. And, and you can get humor out of almost anything I found and uh that, that came into my all my writing was funny.
So when you were um I think early on you got me on to Joe R Landsdale. You were reading Paradise Sky and you put a clip from Paradise Sky on, on Facebook and I read it and I thought, 'Oh my god, that, that's just hilarious!' So you obviously resonated with, with his sort of storytelling. You, you've got a similar sort of style that, that, um ...
Yeah, absolutely. I found that real life, like I love Stephen King and his horror stories ...
His psychology is amazing. His understanding of human psychology, yeah.
It is, but there's not a lot of humor in his uh tales I found uh but when I wrote, I was writing what I hoped was more real life, and real life is funny and sad ...
... all the time. And you've got no choice with most of it so I tried to bring out the funny bits as much as possible as well and my stories gave me great scope to um bring out humor ...
... the humor of, yeah ...
And that makes it entertaining. It's not just a read. It, it makes it entertaining for the reader, doesn't it?
Well if your books aren't entertaining, people aren't going to read them.
You know I've been sent a couple of books recently that I thought by the cover and by the authors would be fantastic and they were dull and, very dull and formulaic, and I read 10 pages and put them down.
When I imagined they would be fantastic but they were formulaic and historical and there was no fun in the story. There was no ... it was just telling you what happened and uh well I-I have enough serious stuff in my life without sitting down and reading that.
Don't we all? Yeah, yeah. So now you've got 25 stories you said you've still, still got 25 unfinished stories. Do you think you'll ever finish one of them or, you do, you want to, or does it not ...?
Oh, I want to!
It frustrates me that I can't sit for long enough uh to, to focus I guess.
What I've done is I've inspired a couple of my grandchildren to start writing.
And they're writing fiction and so what I did was, now that they've hit their teens, I've told them that I have all these stories half written and that I'd like them to take over if I never finish them.
Oh that's lovely.
Yeah, yeah. And I-I didn't know what to do with them because I didn't want them to go to waste because as I said, some of them are 300 pages long already.
A and it seemed like such a waste but I couldn't, I couldn't focus because of the injury. I'm sitting here with you talking but my neck is burning, my back is playing up. But, I'm used to it. But like you can't focus, you can't get into your story and sit down and write for six hours straight anymore and that's how I learned to write.
Yeah, yeah. Especially with the typing. Can you um record? Do voice, like like record, like walk around, or or ... and then convert it to text?
I could, I could do that easily um because my phone will do it for me these days but I can't write like that. I-I need, for some reason, I need to see the words.
And the words inspire me for the next words and ...
Yeah , yeah.
... I'm, it's just be- I don't know why that is to be honest. I just, I'm not that sort of writer that can just go blah blah out of my head.
You need to see them entirely.
I would go everywhere! [both laugh]
And then they'd be 600 pages long! [both laugh]
Oh dear ...
I'm hopeful that I ... I'm walking for the first time in eight months again and I'm walking up eight kilometres early in the morning here, before the sun comes up.
That's fantastic! Yeah.
It is, it is. And mentally it's so fantastic for me ...
... um and so I'm hopeful that over the next year I'll get back in to be able to work out a way to sit down and finishing those stories um because I think a couple of them are absolutely fantastic.
Yeah. And I'll tell you what, if you don't like your own work, no one else is going to like it.
I think that as well. I think you're right there. You can write for an audience or you can write formulaic but uh if it's not, if you don't like it, you can't expect anybody else to. You really can't. I-I hope to keep going, I hope to keep going and finish these stories. I've got one called ... it's set in America and it's basically an, an, and a Fethafoot warrior being caught in America in an apocalypse and there's seven people who try to take over in America and they're part, they're under, they live underneath the banner of the seven deadly sins. So gluttony, avarice, and he, and, and so the author's, the Fethafoot warrior is going through America having to stop these people from taking over because they want to be dictatorships in their little area of America. So he goes through and he finds the opposite of these people as he's going through, and that one's 250 pages long already.
Good grief. [both laugh]
And it's been so it was so much fun to write. But as I said getting back into that is very difficult unless I can get my body uh ...
... um feeling again I suppose ...
To do the right, thing, yeah, yeah. And then writing under painkillers that dulls the senses as well, so it's not, yeah, yeah ...
Yeah, that's right, yeah.
Well we might leave you in peace to get that neck and back um ... you probably need a good massage, mate. Go and get a massage!
I've got the most wonderful masseur here.
Do you, yeah?
Yes and she loves me and charges me cheaply and uh she'd probably one of the best, well she would be the best masseur I've ever found and I've been I've been using masseurs since 1982 when I first broke my back. And she would be the best I've ever found and she's right here in Bowen!
Well I might have to come and visit when they open the borders because I haven't had a massage in three months, thanks to lockdown, and everything hurts. [Laughs.] So I'm looking forward to yeah,
I empathise with you completely!
Yeah, yeah ... all right matey. Look, lovely to talk with you. Thank you so much for your time today and um thank you for trusting us with the Fethafoot Chronicles. And if you're out there just look for the covers they're all, they're all similar, and um yeah easy to identify. Um John Wenitong, Pemulwuy Weeatunga, thank you very much!
Have a good one, mate!
Thanks so much for your time, Jenny.
Thank you, John. Take care, bye! You've been listening to an IndieMosh interview with John Wenitong aka Pemulwuy Weeatunga. If you'd like to learn more about John or check out some of his books then visit indiemosh.com.au or search for The Fethafoot Chronicles at your favorite online retailer. I'm Jenny Mosher, thanks for listening!