The IndieMosh Interviews

#4 Steve Knox

September 12, 2021 IndieMosh Season 1 Episode 4
The IndieMosh Interviews
#4 Steve Knox
Show Notes Transcript

In this interview, Jenny Mosher talks with Steve Knox, author of self-development and leadership content to learn about Steve’s leadership work, his writing practices and where he gets his ideas from.

If you’d like to learn more about Steve or check out some of his books, then visit or search for his books at your favourite online retailer.

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I'm Jenny Mosher and today I'm talking with Steve Knox, author of self-development and leadership content. Join me as we learn about Steve's leadership work, his writing practices and where he gets his ideas from. Hi Steve, how are you? All the way from Houston! 
Yeah, I'm doing well Jenny. Good to see you, thanks for having me. 
No worries, thanks, thanks for making the time to come on. It's late afternoon in Houston it's ...
It is! 
Yep on a Tuesday it's 8 a.m and here in Australia um 
That's beautiful.
Yeah, how are you finding it being back and dealing with the time difference again, or being back, is most of your work in America? In the States?
Um it's split across the world really. Um we, we kind of live in five time zones here and then I live in about five others globally so it's always fun uh to manage the schedule.
Fair enough, you're used to it then. Now as a bit of background you're, you're a leadership coach. How is that different to a business coach? 
You know I really um differentiate around two things. One would be yes businesses hire me but they hire me to work with individuals and uh you know I think the basic premise, Jenny, is that everyone is a leader. Um I think a lot of people may not buy into that um but the question isn't whether you're a leader or not, it's what kind of leader are you? And so I really specialise in in in helping people understand how they can have impact and influence wherever they might find themselves, in whatever vocation, calling, career. 
Right, so you don't necessarily just work with managers? You also work with teams? Work with teams work, with businesses, start-ups mainly, for the most part, been getting into the scale-up business when, when companies are ready to kind of transition um and bring in next-level hires uh, I come alongside and help interview and, and make sure they're a good fit. But also you know, retaining talent, a big part of it is professional development and everyone wants to know, you know, 'What's in it for me?' and 'Is, is there a ceiling?' or 'Is there a career path?' and I help unlock that for the companies that hire me. 
Right, right. So you've got a you've got a Master's in Entrepreneurial Leadership. Prior to that was there psychology or HR study? Was there something ...? 
Yeah, yeah. So my background is in non-profit and world education and project management in particular. The last, I guess, official employer was the University of Sydney. I was an executive manager across 13 business units there and, and it was a lot of fun but quickly my side hustle turned into my main gig and, which is coaching, and so it took off there in Sydney . 
Yeah, why do you think your side hustle took off when other people's side hustles don't? Any ideas? You don't have to share any corporate secrets!
No, no, no, no, there's no corporate secrets! I, you know, honestly Jenny, I reckon um eight years of dedicated effort, um weekends, holidays, stealing time, doing whatever I could I, I really turned it into more than just a side hustle so I think effort, relationships, a little bit of luck and timing, but mostly relationships, you know. I met the right people uh and they opened doors for me, and I'm a big believer in that. You can be the best thing and if no one knows about you, you don't have the right connections, it's just not going to work. 
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's true, that's true. It's a, it's a, it's a mix of everything, isn't it, in a lot of ways?
It is, yeah, it is, yeah. 
Um, now we've um helped you release three books, um Confidence, The Asymmetrical Leader and Smooth Running Weird which just, that, I just love that the title alone speaks to me. I just, I think of Phoebe Buffay running through Central Park with the legs and her arms flying everywhere. Is there a common link with those three books in that you're trying to help people develop what's different about them and be the best that they can be, rather than trying to be, to fit what they think society is telling them to be? Or am I, am I overthinking it? 
There's like two questions there so I'll answer the first one. Yes there's a common link. There is uh, you're really good to ask that question because there is a framework in my mind. So heart, soul, mind and strength was kind of the premise behind the books. And so the Asymmetrical Leader um was really about the heart of leadership and what, what it means to be a leader. It answers five kind of key questions um that we all struggle with or have and, and go check out the book to figure out what those five questions are. Then Confidence was really about the mind and so looking at um the, the mental belief the, the abundance mindset and, and the fact that it's a skill. You know there's probably ninety percent of people out there that feel like a fraud. You know number one thing my clients come to me with is like I'd like to be more confident when it comes to ... and then they then they fill in the blank, when really the word confidence in the Latin means 'to trust within', and I think it's that ability to back ourselves no matter what's gone down and that book addresses that. And then the, the last book you mentioned and you love the title, Smooth Running Weird, it's actually a phrase that my father-in-law uses. It's a, a Texas colloquialism that I picked up from him and it's a collection of 66 daily readings from my weekly newsletter. So I found the most popular ones and we put them in a book and it's out there to help you and really that is about strength, finding daily strength. So I'm currently working on the soul book and hopefully we'll work with you on that in the next couple years but um, I'm doing some research and, what, what is the soul of work? And I'm really driven by that question for this fourth in the series. And then I, I've got some other books I want to write but uh, yeah, that's kind of the framework. 
Not enough hours in a day, not enough days in a year sometimes ... 
Now you mentioned your newsletter. One thing I've, I've noticed about you over the last few years or, or, I haven't, or rather I haven't noticed, I haven't noticed any social media profiles. Um you may have some, I don't know, but I haven't - not that I've been stalking - but I haven't noticed any. Um, how do you do your marketing? If you don't, if you don't use social media as a marketing tool, how do you do your marketing? 
Sure. Um I'm a big believer in attraction over promotion and what I've found is that if I can write for a specific audience on some key themes then the word will get out and so the books have been my marketing which has been great working with you um and IndieMosh is that, when people buy a book I usually give them two. And I want them to give one away and so it's viral in that sense. I've had social media, but I found that it was a distraction from doing meaningful work rather than a magnifier or multiplier of the work I was doing. And I was one voice amongst gazillions so I've, I've chosen to aim small, miss small and really go after the heart of the people that are already following me. And it's and it's worked you know um, I think our click rate on the newsletter is probably around 40 per cent open rate, which is pretty good for a newsletter, if you know anything about those stats.
Yeah! And you you released pretty much daily your newsletter?
Was doing daily up until the pandemic and felt like it was overkill, and really kind of reassessed again this whole idea of less is more. So I've gone to a weekly format which has been been pretty um sustainable for me. But also I think, um, you know helpful for for my readership, and tribe, if you will. 
Yeah, and I think too as a creative view, and you must be creative, you can't do also what you're doing the other side, um, you also need a break from what you're doing so that you can reboot, reassess and freshen up. Otherwise you just you reach a point where you're just doing the same old, same old and it loses a bit of a bit of oomph, doesn't it? 
It does lose oomph. So one of my one of the things I teach and one of the things I practise is that we have to retreat to advance, and so a mentor told me a very long time ago to miss out monthly, withdraw weekly and divert daily and those are good rhythms ... 
So-sorry, what were those rhythms? Miss out monthly? 
Miss out monthly - like check out, don't let anybody know where you're going and just reset. Um withdraw weekly - make sure you have a sabbath, you know, a day that's just for you to reconnect. For me that's being outside uh, sometimes it's golf, sometimes it's it's walking, you know, I just have to be in nature. And then daily um I meditate and journal. So those are things that recharge and refocus me. Um and usually first thing in the morning is when my subconscious is most in contact with my conscious mind and so I'm the most creative. I find ideas and, and whatnot um ... Actually a pretty famous author investor entrepreneur James Altucher has this thing where he's a big believer in writing down 10 ideas every day, and I've been doing that for almost a decade now and it's, it's where I get most of my content, um in my journals, I write down 10 ideas. I might think about a client. I might think about an issue. I might think about current events, whatever it might be, and I'll write down my 10 thoughts on that. 
So 10 thoughts a day, that's 3650 a year, that's 36 and a half thousand thoughts over a decade! 
Yeah, yeah, so ...
What do you do with those, like, are they physically in notebooks? Or are they on scraps of paper? 
They are.
Do you - 
I'm a big, go ahead, sorry -
Do you, do you keep the notebooks? 
I do. Um I'm a, I'm a moleskine old school pen to paper guy and every day I write. I write five kind of key areas. I do a litmus of how I'm doing physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. I write down my to-do list for the day. I write down three things I'm grateful for. Specifically a conversation I had. Some small blessing in my life and something I learned. And then I do the 10 ideas. 
Right, right. The 10 ideas, are they business ideas? Life ideas or just 10, are they 10 ideas of things you could do, or just 10?
They might be something I'm, right, yeah they might be something for the newsletter. They might be things I need to say to a client. They might be um you know how to how to manage the whole Afghanistan debacle and what does that mean to me and, and what would it look like to be stranded - I mean there's all kinds of things depending on what's happening around me. 
Yeah. So they could be 10 mixed ideas? You don't, it's not 10 ideas on one topic? It can be two of this and one of that and seven ...
Usually it's ten on one, on on thing. 
Yeah. Okay. Is that by choice or because that's just how it happens? 
I have ADHD and so it helps me focus um and I find that if I, if I can drill down past five, I really have to focus. And so it helps centre me to a certain way. So it's just a self-leadership practice.
Yeah. So how long do you spend of a morning journaling? Oh so is this, is this journaling or is journaling something different? 
No this is, this is part of the journaling process. Um uh I also, you know um, I don't know if you're you're a purist when it comes to books but uh I dog ear and and write notes in there and sometimes I'll take that and put it in and then write about a quote that meant something to me and, and free write. You know it just depends on how I'm feeling so, yeah I'm not religious about it, I don't do it every day, but most days um I've got through three pages in my moleskin in the morning.
Wow ... I just I can't imagine doing that. I think a lot. I tend to, I tend to wake up at 3am and I'll have the solution to a problem at 3am. That's, that's, that's my thing, when I'm asleep I suddenly wake up and and then I uh a solution will come to me. Um and I've read a lot about people like yourself who journal and, and um understand the value of it. I just, yeah I just haven't been able to bring myself to try. Maybe I'm frightened of having to do it, I don't know. I don't know what it is, um, but I've resisted the, the temptation to even try. It, it's, it's an interesting thing. 
Well it's definitely a discipline, it's a learned behaviour. It's not something that comes naturally to me um you know. I think it's one of those things that has really helped me um when it comes to, to being disciplined. Um there's an assessment out there and that Gallup owns called the Clifton StrengthsFinder and they rank 34 themes or pools of talent and discipline's in my like, bottom, and so as you know I need these, these uh tools and um skills, you know, to create habits that make me productive and focused and, you know started doing it again almost a decade ago and it's interesting, that's when my side hustle uh became my main gig as well. So there's something there. I haven't sat down to reflect on it, but there is a - I don't think it's a coincidence. I think these things, you know, the more discipline I have uh within, the the better off I am at helping others live a disciplined life.
So, I would, I would challenge you to do it!
You'd win! 
And yeah, yeah, yeah, no-no-no, I would just challenge you, I would encourage you to, you know, if you just, if literally a, a habit is formed over 66 days. We know this from research at the University of London um. I doubled that. If you can stick with something uh for four months it will become uh a daily, daily thing for you and so it's about rewiring the brain um and also even the narrative you have around it where you like 'I can't'? You won't then. 
That's probably true. I think part of it is I'm frightened of adding to my plate at the moment. I sort of feel like I've got enough on my plate so I don't want to, I don't want to create another thing that I might, I might not live up to, and then I'll feel bad because I'm not living up to that. So it's easier just to not do it which could be why a lot of people don't start diets and they don't start exercise and things like that. I wonder if that's ... 
Yeah, I think it's two things probably, if I, if I hear you correctly. One is you're pretty competitive. You don't like losing, so you don't want to start something you can't ... 
That's true!
... can't finish ... 
I'm a great winner but I'm a shocking loser!
There you go, so we don't play games we can't win. And then, two, I resemble that um and then secondly I think you know even just that fear of failure. Um if I hear you've got a lot on and commitments, the last thing you want to do is, is detract from your rhythm and routine so. Um if it's working for you work it, and if it doesn't, you don't think it would add any value, don't.
And then you might be surprised!
Yeah, yeah. I ... look ... the idea is there it's just um, yeah, yeah giving it a go. Look I might do it one day. Who knows? Who knows? I might I might give it a go. I think there's actually a part of me that's actually frightened of committing my inner thoughts to paper. I don't know why. I mean I can't, I mean it's not like a diary is it? It's different to a diary. 
Well, yeah it, it, I think it's more constructive um and, and less free thought. I mean there is a free thought part of it and component, but I also think um it's good that no one can read my handwriting, not even my wife, so it doesn't matter. 
So there are secrets after all?
Yes there are. 
So how long do you spend each morning with that writing process? 
It varies anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour depending on what we've got going on yeah, so it's not exhaustive.
Right, fair enough, all right um ... So you do have days when you don't write?
And I suppose you have days when you're travelling um ... Are you able to travel at the moment? 
We are.
You are? 
Yeah, yeah, so I've been on two international trips since all this has gone down. Um I was an early adopter when it came to getting vaxxed and was fortunate enough to get Moderna um and have been to um as far away as Africa for work. And domestically we've still travelled eve,n even during this whole pandemic. So things are picking up here in the States. I know that's not the case where you are but um yeah I'm able to travel and in fact will travel the most of the rest of this year. 
That's good. So even with modern technology it's still, you still find a reason to to be present in person with the, the companies you're helping and the people you're helping. 
Sure um the, the thing that shifted is I think people are more um open and have adopted Zoom and platforms like Zoom. I was using Zoom probably um before most people. I was a beta user and uh they were a client at one time, which was kind of fun. Um and the online platform is strengthened when I show up in person. I think people still need to break bread with you, they want to see you, and it means a lot if you show up, you know. I think that, that they feed off of that, my clients do, and that energy and there's you just can't, I don't think, uh replace that in-person contact um and do the, the level of, of work and the depth of work that I hope to do with any client. 
Or team, so ... 
I think, I think I, I get what you're saying there. I found sort of over the last 18 months you know we've been reliant on technology to keep in touch with people, but I've actually found I've withdrawn from the social media. I don't ... I'm struggling to use it. I don't want to use it. But if I see people, I'm much more engaged with the the face-to-face now. Um I've sort of I've sort of had a reversal. While I'm happy to use this sort of technology to do this sort of thing ... 
Um on a, on a connecting level um, yeah I'm actually happier in person too, so I, I get what what you're saying it's interesting. 
Yeah ... I think it's a gift of the pandemic um that we've gotten back to what matters most. 
And it's simplified our lives and I think a lot of people have uh kind of trimmed the fat so to speak in what's not essential and then it just magnifies when we actually do get to hug someone, shake someone's hand, fist bump, whatever it might be, or you actually see a smile instead of a mask. So it's a good thing, a really good thing. 
Um your imprint test, your personality test. Did you devise that? 
I did. It's based on uh Jungian research which all of um the personality assessments out there are based on. So, extroversion, introversion, um you know, how we take in information, um how we recharge, you know, and how we make decisions. And so um again I'm obsessive, so I wanted to figure out something better than a hundred question, questionnaire to kind of simplify things. So I boiled it down to two questions and it's pretty spot on as far as temperament goes. And so those two questions unlock um I think 40 different data points around four different temperaments or leadership styles, so ...
Right, yeah I was, I-I did it just very recently. 
Oh cool!
Yeah, I've been curious about it for a while and I've been thinking 'Will I? Won't I?' you know, well, and then anyway I, I did it quite recently um knowing the interview was coming up I thought, 'Ah, just, just do it Jen, do it!' Um and it was - 
How did you find it?
I've - sort of a bit scary, like looking in the mirror it was like, 'How did you know this about me? How did you know this about me when I didn't know this about me?'
So yeah looking at the list it was, it was um I could relate to it and I thought, 'Yeah I, I get that, I get that.' So ... and I suppose if it helps you understand yourself um ... It reminded me of the, the, the Myers-Briggs, Myers-Briggs test? A bit like that but ... 
Yeah, yah.
Less, less broken up um, was probably easier. 
Yeah, yeah. And that was the point um you know it's been interesting uh having taken this across the planet now uh yeah there's a sense of, um, the Asian community, and I don't want to put everybody in the same bucket, but they seem to love it because of the simplicity, um, as well in the usefulness, it's practical. And then in Africa it's, it's gone really, really well from a team building perspective. Giving language to uh, you know, individuals and articulating what kind of leader they are, you know, it's kind of coming full circle in the conversation and, and really around those four, four temperaments, I call them drivers, doers, developers, designers - I'd be curious how you tested out, I don't know if you want that public or not? I'm a designer - um so it's all about the possibilities, the process for me uh as a creative and, um my wife's a doer so she's my opposite. So it even helps navigate, you know, relationships and, and understanding appreciating uh where people are coming from. Which is why I created it.
Right, right I was - I'm a driver apparently. 
Oh cool, okay.
Yeah, so what did you say your wife is? 
She's a doer.
A doer, right. 
Yeah. Yes, so she's details of people and I'm possibilities of process. So those are the four kind of categories. How you answer it. Details are possibilities, people are process and the combination of that then gives you the temperament. 
Yeah and what you say is right. That's one thing I have learned, you can't just have a business where everybody's the same personality type. You've got to have that mix.
Otherwise it will tank, um ...
Unless you're Exxon.
True! But yeah I suppose if you were all the same personality type you'd end up just like the fish in the gold tank that eat each other, wouldn't you? I mean you wouldn't get anywhere.
There's, there's a beauty to diversity and I'm a big believer and I think it makes everything better. 
Yeah, take the best of everything and then work with that, yeah, yeah. Good thing for a lot of our communities to remember, um. And speaking of communities you, you're in Houston now? 
You were in Australia for how long? 
We were in Australia almost nine years. Uh, the Northern Beaches, yeah, just outside of Sydney and um it's very close to my heart. Um still have great friends there and a handful of clients so, a smattering if you will, and uh really a great season. I mean, I think Meg and I um it's the furthest we could get from uh our, our you know English-speaking anyway, from our home and um really appreciated the culture there. There's a lot of differences, you know I think, between Australia and the US, and I think that perspective in time really benefited us in our relationship but also my business. It's good to live outside of your home. Travel's good for us you know, yeah so.
Look travel's good for everybody. Um I took my husband to England in 1984 and um and he, he said he was stunned. He'd been to southeast Asia and he'd had no interest in going to England. He said 'Why would I bother I don't know anybody there, yada, yada'. Anyway I took him and we spent four months England, Europe and he came back, he said 'I had no idea that you could go to another English-speaking country but the culture could be so different.' Um and, and he really enjoyed that and, and that's one thing, and the same going to America, you know we've been to America twice, haven't gone as far east as as Texas yet! One day!
You've got to come! 
Yeah, we've gotta come! We've made it as about as far east as Bisbee, Arizona but um yeah um. We'll get back one day, but yeah, it's just, it's, it is great experiencing those different cultures even even if they do, you know we might use the same words for things but in essence a lot of the time we still don't speak the same language, it's, it's ... Correct. 
Yeah, yeah ...
Correct. I was Stevo in uh, in Oz and uh, my family calls me Steven, my wife calls me Stevie, and uh I was Stevo or, or uh, you know Knox. My last name was pretty popular there, so yeah, apparently. 
Yeah I can imagine that yeah, Stevo yeah, it's it's yeah, most, most that, that's it. If you can live with Steve you've been accepted. Good on you, good on you. Um, so Houston? So, are you a swimmer? Can you swim?
I can. I was a lifeguard growing up. My wife was too. We loved, which is why we chose the Northern Beaches as well, she's a surfer, a long boarder, and um it was big time for us to be able to live in, in that spot um where we lived and so ... But uh here, you know, we're, we are probably 30 minutes from the Gulf Coast which is not quite um, you know, uh Bondi or Manly, or Freshy. But uh it's a different kind of beach but we appreciate it.
Yeah, yeah. You tend to, I suppose Australians, unless you've been there, I tend to think of Texas as being a dry country. I have to, uh, being a dry state, of being la- and I have to remember it has a coastline, you know? 
Yeah yeah, we're on the Gulf Coast.
You get hurricanes, don't you? 
We do, big time.
So what's next for you? 
So, I think you know we're in a pretty interesting season uh working with a handful of clients that um are in the process of either transitioning or scaling and that's a lot of fun for us. Um and I really get to to kind of grow with these clients and, and that's been fun. Um, outside of my corporate clients I work with anywhere from 10 to 20 individuals at any given time and that keeps it, you know, a variety of, of different situations, people either transitioning careers or wanting to improve a skill or, you know, work on themselves. And so um the plate is full on, top of writing.
I was just going to say, is that not exhausting having like those larger corporate clients and 20 to 30 individuals? Do you, do you set yourself a work week? Are you like Monday to Friday for clients and d'you, do you set yourself regular hours, boundaries?
I do, I do. So I basically work five days but it's split up so each day has a different focus. Mainly coaching happens Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, any workshops Thursday, and if I'm going to visit a corporate client it'll be a Thursday, Friday, Saturday. Um, with Australian clients sometimes I might sneak a Sunday call in because it's Monday morning um and with folks that, yeah, that live you know in different parts of the world, I have some folks in the UK I talk to on Saturday and so forth. So it just depends on on where clients are.
Yeah, yeah ... Um ... So do you try to limit yourself to x number of hours a week? Do you have like a mental health limit? 
I do.
I do. So um I use an app called Calendly that interfaces with my Google calendar and people can book in um three kind of bite-size 20, 40 or 80 minute sessions, depending on what our, our agreement is and how that works and so it, it varies but that is the best way I can chunk my time and stay productive. So and of course I have um time in the day for writing uh, time in the day for, for replying to emails and creating any kind of content that I might need for a workshop so. 
Yeah, yeah, because you can't you can't just be giving of yourself 40 hours a week, like ...
It's exhausting. And then as you say you've got the admin on top of that, answering emails, even that alone can take, can take several hours a week um, I think ... Are you seeing a new trend um in the last couple of years for entrepreneurs and business people to not work 80 hours a week, to, to acknowledge that it's okay to do, you know, a 35, 40 hour week, or whatever. That there's no shame in having downtime?
Yeah, you know I think the two principles behind that are, if you can automate it or delegate it, you're doing well. And those are two things that I try and help my clients with is, 'What can I automate? What can I delegate?' And there's so much wastage in a day. I mean all the research that's out there we ... even if you're working eight, ten hours a day, you're really only working half that, where you're doing 'work' and so um ... There's a great book um called Deep Work, I believe - don't quote me on that - but it talks about the difference between deep and shallow work and scheduling that and some of the principles in that have helped me look at what, what's life-giving, um, what's not and, and making sure I'm doing something of both um as I work, so.
Right, right, so um .. You play a bit of golf? 
I do, yeah, um. It's one of those sports that you can, you can do the rest of your life, you know, I found. And so um I played sport growing up and uh injured a knee and, and picked up golf as a result in my 20s. I didn't grow up playing um and, I like it because I'm competing with myself um even though I might be with a mate or a friend um, really, uh it comes back to just doing better than I did last time. Um it's also a way to be out in nature uh, I find that it helps reset, you know, and, and typically you're not allowed to have a phone on a golf course so, that's also good. No one can get a hold of you um so there is a, you know, ... I do answer it if my wife calls, but uh for the most part ...
Smart man! 
And yourself? Do you do any sport? Are you, are you swimmer or ... 
No, I tried. I had lessons as a kid but you know I was one of those kids that just the, the coordination wasn't there. The arms and legs just, they just, you know yeah - they'd all be going and I wouldn't be progressing through the water so um. And I lived, you know we lived a long way from the pool it was always yeah ... Um, I walk a lot. We, we didn't have a car growing up so I've always been a walker, so um.
And that's one thing with the um lockdown at least we've been able to get out and walk 
So yeah, so sort of keep up a bit of fitness that way um and just. Yeah, um it'll be good when things, you know we, when we get back to a bit of a 'new normal' and we can, you know, walk in a variety of places but ... 
100 percent.
Yeah, yeah ... 
How are you managing it, you know? I mean you, you, your schedule, has it changed? Uh, you know, has it focused you more?
Yeah, we've been busy. Um, when it, when things first hit, uh business fell off the edge of a cliff. The government then provided a lot of financial support to people who lost their jobs etc so a lot of people who had always thought, 'Oh I've always wanted to write a book', they did.
And we benefited from that, yeah.
That's good for business. 
Look it was and I think too, a lot of people realised that they could spend that money, I've got another client who said, 'You know you can spend ten thousand laying on a beach in the South Pacific and you've got the memories and the kids will throw the photos out when you die. Or you can spend that ten thousand on a book which will last for, you know, however long, you know, it'll last long after you've gone. So I think a lot of people have sort of um been thinking not necessarily specifically along those lines, but they've been, they've realised that they, they want to leave their mark and now's their chance. So, it's been good for us and we've been refining systems over the last year because we've had the the work to do it and with new technology like this, like you know you were saying that you worked with Zoom, we're talking today via Zencastr. Just the different technologies that we've got that in the last 12 months our, our processes have changed um and we're refining so ... It's been good for us in that, in that respect. And I think that's a lot of it too, the resilience too, I've noticed the people who seem to not have coped as well, they don't seem to be as resilient or adaptable. Have you found that? 
Yeah, you know I think agility has been one of the needs during this um pandemic and the companies that have survived um where it wasn't cash-dependent um have, you know really taken that, that heart to 'never waste a crisis'. I don't know if you've heard that phrase um and so it allows for some tougher conversation, decisions to be made, and the companies that have embraced resiliency and agility and been able to adapt um have actually thrived. You know it's been a mixed bag. So companies like yourself where people are realising um there, there are these services, there are these opportunities to, to make a mark have taken advantage of it. And I think the companies that weren't afraid um that didn't, you know, they stepped back for a moment, but then they engaged, are the ones that are actually doing well during these times. 
Yeah, yeah. I read something years ago during the depression I think it was, I think it was Kellogg's? Do you have, you have Kellogg's over there? Kellogg's the cereal manufacturer? 
Ooh yeah, Frosted Flakes. 100 per cent, yeah.
Yeah um and I think, what I was, what I read was that Kellogg's didn't stop advertising during the depression, so when the depression was over they were the number one cereal brand. So they actually, during the course of the depression went from almost being unknown or just one of the smaller brands to being THE brand. Um, that's another one for the fact checkers because I'm relying on memory of something I was told or read ten years ago but yeah, yeah it's um. I feel for the businesses who, who can, who couldn't sidestep, who have been affected by all this, who, and the really small businesses - coffee shops, things like that they're, really suffering. 
But um yeah, hopefully um, yeah hopefully there'll be other things for them, you know, coming soon and they'll get back on their feet and hopefully ...
There'll be a need for those businesses again and I think that if people aren't afraid to risk again and back themselves um, they can do well, so. 
Um, yes I'm looking forward to seeing a hairdresser again, I can tell you that! The lockdown hair is just ...
I didn't have a haircut for five months and for an OCD person like me it was, it was crazy. So uh when I finally went, had it trimmed it was, it was like winning something. So something as simple as a haircut - who would have thought, you know? 
I know, I know. Isn't that good? Isn't that good that we can appreciate something as simple as a haircut that's ... yeah. But what you said about nature, too. I think, I think we all need to get out in nature more just, look at the butterflies, the plants, the the ants on the ground um you get back in in touch with that, that stuff. 
And that's another gift I think of the pandemic because it slowed people down. Um I think we've lived at such a crazy rate of speed, at least I've seen in my clients, that the whole working from home phenomenon, the fact that it's doable, I mean, I think it dispelled a lot of myths. And that work's actually been a place where people can find structure and productivity in a day and it's been life-giving, it hasn't been a burden, a four-letter word so to speak. And you know, I not, I realise not everybody loves what they do but um the benefit I think of accomplishing something and achieving something in times of uncertainty is unbelievable uh, for the psyche and, and uh for us so, it's a good thing.
Yeah, yeah. That's a very positive note. I think we might wrap it up there.
Beautiful, thanks Jenny, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Well thank you, Steve. Great to meet you, great to hear your ideas and um, I promise I will, I will have a go at that journaling. 
Maybe not tomorrow, but I'll let you know how I go.
Brilliant. Thanks again, have a great, great day. 
You too, cheers.
You've been listening to an IndieMosh interview with Steve Knox. If you'd like to learn more about Steve or check out some of his books then visit or search for his books at your favourite online retailer. I'm Jenny Mosher thanks for listening!